To fully understand this, one must have read the previous post or been on facebook following it! So this was my response to his question.
“Firstly, I am honored that you believe I have above average brain activity!( always wanted to use a line like that on myself but never got round to it because of this humility thing I have got going!) Soo, thanks for that! I will do my best to not outshine you…me and my black boyness! Hehehehe
On to the good stuff then! Again, I am grateful for the caution you bring to my attention and it is going to be put under advisement in the course of this discussion.. (I feel so formal!)
In general I agree with most of what you are saying because I understand from where you are coming. It would be disingenuous to cover up a faulty idea so as to keep the ideology going. It is inane to subscribe to such audacious philosophies. Brace your self. This is going to be long! As always. 😉
To directly address your contentions I must make certain underlying assumptions on some of the issues you have raised..
First off, I do believe you did allude to something similar in an agenda else where on the yoms page. It is from that thread that I will assume your sentiments are driven.
Secondly, I will refer to a statement you made about the more moderate Christian saying “They will rarely correct others publicly where it’s necessary, nor will they come out strongly against archaic views because I guess they don’t want to fracture the team.”
As in the case ASCK YOMS Vs Frobisha on matters to do with alcohol,(which I assume is the point of reference for this post) I believe this assertion is rather inaccurate. To be clear, I , as this post strongly suggests, am one of the moderate Christians, right? So the response will be purely based on the defense of my “moderate” approach.
To suggest that we sit back and watch the fundamentalists make fools out of themselves and shrug it off would basically point to a level of irresponsibility in epic proportions. This, in my defense (and that of all the moderates I know) is an erroneous presumption. I am passionately involved in the intricacies of pastoral care and as such, my heart goes out first and foremost to the young in Christ.. to the growing, to the ones that still ‘drink milk’ as it were. To these, I provide guidance, correction and direction the best way I know how and with special care depending on what level of growth and in what particular area.
In no way should the moderates “accept” wrong doctrine. In fact, rebuking, teaching and correcting are tools that must be used to edify the brethren (both young and mature) However, as you witnessed in that case against Frobisha, It is also, the moderates’ duty to foster peace, promote love and encourage humility. These facets of our faith are most important in whatever task we undertake, whether it be in doctrine, whether it be in rebuking, correcting and/or exhorting. If these facets are in danger of being misrepresented, then no matter what doctrine you are preaching (be it true or false) these-according to my faith- take precedence over everything else. These facets must be addressed as fundamentals to any resolution. Without them, as Christians, we are simply wasting time. Correcting, teaching and rebuking quickly degenerate into quarrels, dissentions and mindless banter about who is right and who is wrong. It results into more strife, gossip emerges and hatred abounds. This has happened one too many times because people have elevated “passionate rebukes” over their love for others. This is a special time for the “moderates” to step in and bring balance to the world!(the avaters of Christianity! J)
Christians fighting amongst themselves simply because they believe they are all right has been the story from of old. Moderates see all this and want to reconcile based on the more important, the more essential… the more significant things of our faith. Peace, love hope… all in humility.
Attacking and showing someone how so very wrong they are is never going to be the solution to get anyone to understand their mistake! It will drive them harder to it! That is all the moderates are up against. Make no mistake, these moderates to whom I refer do not just sit back and defend false doctrine because they are afraid to “fracture the team”. No! It is the context in which its all done that matters for them. The context that yields the best results… Peace and love to all men!
So to answer your question “Don’t you think it’s time the more enlightened shall we say of the brethren have a duty to sharpen their fellow brothers instead of having outsiders so to speak have to do it and so be attacked for it?” It has been the case. It’s being done. Just not the way everyone thinks it should be. Actually I welcome with both hands the outsiders’ challenge. If it is what will help us learn how to discuss and debate amicably then by Heaven yeah! I say bring it on! Make us stronger! We need all the help we can get!
Eloquent Silences 
Nice reply.
I wanted to see what your thinking process was and I think I agree with most of it. However, I think the only place I have concern is that the reprimanding is done privately and not so much in public so though the work of correction and rebuke, of which I commend you and is the reason I brought it up, is not seen by those outside the fold. I disagree that showing someone they are wrong will not help. It always does even when it doesn’t seem like it. You can keep a semblance of peace by not bringing it up much, but meanwhile, the more vocal and zealous people with misunderstood ideas of the gospel are out evangelizing with passion and I assume you admire their passion but may not appreciate how they dilute your message and credibility with those you’re trying to reach. My point I think is that I’d be happy one day to see say for example, when a zealous christian is discrediting evolution totally or saying something archaic, that a Christian can correct him (in love like a lot need to add on to what they say)before I/or another has to. It shows a commitment to truth over feelings.
It would lend so much credibility if someone not saved saw someone who is a Christian correct someone who is spouting anything archaic or wrongfully interpreted. Then we can see in the faith a system of growth and of discarding old traditions and dogmas as they seek the truth along with all of us. I know the fear is to be seen fighting but I believe people are grown up enough to disagree agreeably, after all, y’all have the fruit of joy, gentleness, peace etc…You can show us how people can disagree but in love. I think the fear of fractions is religious and it may have to happen so that you can push each other to a better place, otherwise, I think it holds back and stumbles a lot of people who may even be interested in salvation. Like I said to Nel, I think too much precedence is put on those that drink milk and those that should be eating meat are left with baby teeth permanently.The fear that talking about these things will somehow make people lose faith I think makes you captive to the weak links in your chain.You think maybe there may be a way to still train the young and use discussions like this to help them, instead of insulating them from the world in which they live? It’s a delicate balance, but I personally think it’s leaning more to one side than the other.
Thanks for the answer. Unlike what my other hairy friend said about awful consequences, I think anyone who reads this, whatever their faith can glean something useful out of it. Maybe then we can openly discuss these issues and not think of them as a war..I certainly don’t.
Cheers mate
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Thank you mate. Just to make a few things clear. I in no way am refusing rebukes, public or otherwise.. as long as they are done in love. If they are not, It is my opinion that they quickly degenerate into judgemental accusations and attacks and ‘holier-that-thaw-art”attitudes. This is what i have been against and will continue to contend.
You said “It would lend so much credibility if someone not saved saw someone who is a Christian correct someone who is spouting anything archaic or wrongfully interpreted.” In my view, i think this has been done and quite well. look all through the cases against and for Frobisha and many other post on the page! I dont think that it hasnt been dealt with. Even in public live debates, the likes of him have been challenged. So i dont believe there is a fear to have them stumbled. However, the manner in which our challenges and rebukes are expressed had brought concern to me because even those that were delivering the rebukes were on a higher horse than they should be and as such, I, (the moderate one)and my fellow moderate brethren responded.
you also said. “You think maybe there may be a way to still train the young and use discussions like this to help them, instead of insulating them from the world in which they live?” I do believe there is a way as seen by the yoms page and countless discussions off of it, so to answer your question, yes. And people are not afraid any more to engage in such discos. You are right, the milk drinkers are placed higher than the meat eaters in priority. The meat eaters can find their way,They have been equipped with the jaws to chew threw the hard stuff so yeah. They will always grow if they are willing. The milk drinkers cant yet! Its only reasonable to have a substantial amount of precedence (that you might call too much)over them. They take priority as commanded by the Lord of the Faith. So you tell me, are they going to quickly warm up to the idea of reducing precedence? I certainly wouldnt. But you are right, we need to keep a balance and not over do it.
Finally, the fear isnt to “be seen fighting”. The fear is in what the fighting among ourselves will result into. I dont care if we agree to have distinctively different opinions about a matter of faith. However, if that difference is going to cause hatrade,If it is going to express anything else but the fruit of the Spirit, i will be on the fast truck to look for an alternative way to deal with it. Unless it completely deviates from the fundamentals of my faith where still, We can then amicably part ways!Its not a war against flesh and blood. I am not about to let it get their on my watch.
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Huh??
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MizPage, Coffee? we can talk over a nice Mocca and you can ask me all you want! looking forward!
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Now, Mr. Eloquent, you guys sincerely have mob jazz. My little understanding has highlighted a few points from the article [that is, like, *really* long], which I believe all Christians need to get past to reach a form of understanding. These are differences in;
1. Opinion
2. Perspective
3. Interpretation
Your [mob] jazz has also raised another question for me.
Forgive me if what I write seems uncoordinated along the way, but I’m still trying to wrap my head around it as well, also as I write.
Before you can rebuke a brother/sister in love, you need to have your facts straight and hope to God they agree, see the error of their ways [in your opinion] and turn; or simply agree to disagree with you. In every crowd, there is a bunch of fundamentalists whose minds are locked to one way of thinking. There is an issue of truth here as well – defining what it is, because we both know that people believe and work out their faith differently. To a fundamentalist, you might come across as nonconformist and need spiritual intervention to turn from your “wicked” ways. But this is just hearsay.
Be it quoting/interpreting scripture the right way or the wrong way, what is the truth? Because in essence, every category can justify their stance with scripture and a different interpretation of it from the old Hebrew/Greek translation to an even older Hebrew/Greek translation. What makes your rebuke hold more water than their views? They might rebuke you for rebuking wrongly. [I sincerely hope you are getting a, spiritual or otherwise, correct revelation of what I am trying to say kubanga … ] Because it is done in love will only show me that you’re a nice and reasonable person; that Christians can be nice people too.
How many Christians are willing to agree to disagree? The theologians, prayer warriors, moderates and liberals [even atheists] all believe that they are coming from the right place – their place. I have spoken to fundamentalists who actually take the word of God literally and support the ex-communication of gays from the church; I have also tried to rebuke [in love] atheists who also take scripture literally and simply won’t listen because they’re convinced I believe in a sexist God and I am not worth their spit in words.
If I can’t read it literally, and with so many interpretations [which every interpreter believes to be right], which is it?
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The Most common Mistake we make is the Presupposition that the Bible as we know it is the entire revelation of God beyond which there is nothing more to know or understand about God. On the Contrary, Iteti, I do believe that Scripture was the beginning of understanding God. As such, When we are reading it, we must put into consideration the following;
1. The totality of the context. (i.e., How one verse relates to the whole bilbe, in its attempted at revealing God)
2. The Literal and Symbolic interpretations of specific major themes. Themes that make up the story, themes that detail the story, and Themes that expound on the story.
3. The Infallible TRUTH of the non negotiable foundations of Scripture and also the debatable detail that brunches out of this foundation. Whatever doesn’t align with the major truths(e.g. the Character of God, the Message of the Cross, The Power of Resurrection, and the Revelation of God) can be put on the stool of skepticism until the truth is revealed.
So most disagreements within the Churches are based on either of these considerations. The more options align themselves with the major foundations, the closer they are to Truth.
Lastly, It is good for every believer not to believe they know it all. They aught to be passionate about the things God has placed i their hearts but humble enough to acknowledge there is so much more that is yet to be revealed. So to directly answer your question, The Center of all Truth is Jesus and his Life and all that he represents. Any thing else is built upon that foundation. If it doesn’t hold to this foundational truth, it is felt away with. Whatever brings more light to the very essence of Who Jesus is, then it comes in the name of TRUTH. If it brings divisions, if it causes quarrels, if it makes the body of Christ sick with pride, It must be put to the test of fire and felt with.
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